Anna Karamanou: ‘If we had more women leaders, our world would be more peaceful.’

The politician and leading feminist, on the occasion of her new book ‘The Peaceful Uprising of Female Sapiens 1821-2021,’ gives a powerful, courageous, and captivating interview to Marie Claire about gender equality, #metoo, the role of the Church in patriarchy, and the war in Ukraine.

If we were to choose the most representative figures of the Greek feminist movement in recent decades, one of them would certainly be Anna Karamanou. A national expert in two networks for gender equality policy of the European Commission, a member of the European Parliament (1997-2004), where she promoted various equality issues, as well as significant Greek women’s organizations, she has recently decided to share her rich experience, knowledge, and enlightened ideas in a book.

This is how ‘The Peaceful Uprising of Female SAPIENS‘ (published by Armós) emerged, an essential addition to the library of anyone interested in equality issues, a unique study in Greek literature. It is an exciting historical journey starting from the Revolution of 1821 and culminating in the pandemic and the #metoo movement, showcasing the unseen female protagonists of each era, the evolution of their rights, and their position in society.

‘I had noticed that historians did not include the struggles of women for equality and dignity in their major events,’ says Anna Karamanou today in Marie Claire about her motivation for writing. ‘So I thought to fill the gap in Greek historiography, for which [Konstantinos] Paparrigopoulos had written as early as 1876 that it resembles the monasteries of Mount Athos, where no female enters.’

I thought to fill the gap in Greek historiography, for which [Konstantinos] Paparrigopoulos had written as early as 1876 that it resembles the monasteries of Mount Athos, where no female enters.

In light of the recent commemorative tributes for the 200th anniversary of the Greek Revolution, the author reminds us that «women voluntarily participated in the liberation of the country – their conscription was not mandatory. They chose to throw themselves into battle, abolishing, in the field, the differences between the genders. However, they did not receive the treatment they deserved. Manto Mavrogenous pleaded for a small pension, having spent all her wealth on the struggle – she came from a very wealthy family – and had been left homeless and broke. ».

Her book thus begins by introducing us to more or less well-known heroines of ’21, while also addressing a series of questions such as: What was the life of women during the Revolution and how did it change after liberation? She considers the 19th century pivotal for gender equality, not only in Europe but also in Greece, where the feminist movement began with Kalliroi Parthenis-Siganou:« She was a remarkable, educated woman – a teacher, journalist, and publisher. On March 8, 1887, she published the first issue of the Ladies‘ Newspaper, where she raised the demand for women’s right to education, to dignified work, and for their participation in public life and decision-making centers, an area where we still lag behind in Greece today. This is our own March 8th.

«Kalliroi Parthenis-Siganou published… On March 8, 1887, she published the first issue of the Ladies’ Newspaper, where she raised the demand for women’s right to education, to dignified work, and for their participation in public life. This is our own March 8th».

»From a very young age, I had noticed discrimination and inequalities between the genders – ever since we were separated at school, with girls going to the girls’ gymnasium and boys to the boys’ gymnasium. Then, I saw the discrimination in my own family. There were two girls and one boy. My brother had complete freedom, while the girls had to apologize, let’s say, for being ten minutes late from school. I grew up in a very conservative environment in Pyrgos, Ilia, so it was natural for me to engage with feminism.

»While I was studying, I began working at OTE. There, the discrimination and inequalities were enormous. Until 1983, women were hired only as secretaries, telephone operators, and very few as economists. No matter what degrees you had, they did not recognize them.

«I grew up in a very conservative environment in Pyrgos, Ilia, so it was natural for me to engage with feminism».

»During the post-dictatorship period, a fairly active and sizable feminist movement developed in Greece, and major organizations were created, such as the Union of Greek Women led by Margarita Papandreou and the Democratic Women’s Movement led by Kaity Paparriga-Kostavara. Margarita Papandreou played a very important role in legally securing gender equality. Until 1983, when the new family law was established, adultery was decriminalized, and rape was criminalized, our legislation was a remnant of the Ottoman Empire.».

She considers the greatest achievement of the feminist movement in Greece to be our participation in education: «We’re talking about a triumph for women! We have more women in universities, more female graduates, and now more women in postgraduate and doctoral studies. The mass entry of women into education began with the introduction of free education in 1964. ». This fact, she points out, contrasts sharply with the low representation of women in centers of power and decision-making. « We have a Parliament with 240 men and only 60 women. In local government, out of 332 municipalities, only 19 are led by women—most of them in small and remote areas like Gavdos, Elafonisos, and Kea. What is local government, after all? It’s “housekeeping,” something we have centuries of traditional training in!

»However, the most challenging and male-dominated field is unionism. When I was the General Secretary of OME-OTE in the 1980s, we were three women, I believe, out of 35 members of the board. Today, there are only two. There are also two women in the General Confederation of Greek Workers (GSEE), out of 45 members. I know firsthand the disregard and indifference that union leaders show towards women’s rights. ».

«We have a Parliament with 240 men and only 60 women. In local government, out of 332 municipalities, there are only 19 women mayors — most of whom serve in small and remote areas, like Gavdos, Elafonisos, and Kea.».

Another achievement, beyond women’s education, is considered to be the #metoo movement. On the other hand, she is troubled by the number of abuses and femicides that dominate the news. She believes that today, gender-based violence is not only more prominently showcased but has also intensified. « because the pursuit of equality and the participation of women in decision-making centers are perceived by men as a zero-sum game, where whatever women gain, men lose. They see their privileges and power diminishing, and this creates violence. When someone murders the woman who left him, what message does that send? “You do not have the right to be free. You must be subordinate to me; otherwise, I will make you disappear.“».

Regarding the Greek patriarchy, from which we have not yet managed to free ourselves, she also places some blame on women: «There is no solidarity among women; we do not operate as a team. When one woman advances, others say, “Why her and not me?” Instead of thinking that when one woman rises, we all rise together. This reflects a lack of self-confidence, as does the fact that we do not claim the positions that interest us. If you do not put your request forward, no one will come knocking on your door to fulfill it. If I had not said, “I believe I can succeed in the European Parliament,” I would never have gotten in. Even the #metoo movement carries a risk: that we all consider ourselves victims. No, we are not victims! Get out there and report it. Perpetrators continue undeterred because they have been conditioned to think that being a man means being aggressive and brash.

«Men see that they are losing their privileges, their power, and this creates violence. When someone murders the woman who left him, what message does it convey? ‘You have no right to be free. You must be subordinate to me; otherwise, I will make you disappear.»

»I watch some sad men in Parliament and wonder, how does this man become a deputy? If he were a woman saying the same nonsense, they would have thrown her out. And I realize how much disrespect we endure. ».

She also attributes part of the responsibility for Greek patriarchy to the Church and the failure to separate it from the Greek State. During her time as a Member of the European Parliament, she utilized her role to submit a resolution to the European Parliament—which she describes as a “top democratic institution that supports you to take any initiative you want“—that would allow women to enter Mount Athos. «At that time, neither the Greek delegation, which had 24 members, nor even my own party supported me: only three Greeks had voted in favor! But I did not back down. I find the ban on women’s access to Mount Athos unacceptable. ».

Anna Karamanou tried, as head of the women’s sector in PASOK, with memoranda addressed to leaders of the Orthodox Church. «We went, a delegation, to Archbishop Christodoulos, who was a very intelligent man but held views against Europe and the Enlightenment. After Christodoulos, we also visited Patriarch Bartholomew, who has an open mind and told us that, essentially, we were right. However, he pointed to Mount Athos and added that “they will not allow it.” ».

«I watch some pathetic men in Parliament and wonder, how does this guy get elected? If he were a woman saying the same nonsense, they would have thrown her out. And I realize how much contempt we are subjected to.».

With resolutions in the European Parliament and petitions to high-ranking clergy, she also advocated for women’s admission to ecclesiastical schools and their ordination. Once again, her efforts fell flat. “The issue remains a taboo, and there is still no separation of Church and State. The priests are public employees, paid by the state, and are omnipresent. Everything established outside the Church—first civil marriage, then the cohabitation agreement, etc.—met with their opposition. And no women’s request has received support from the Church. This is very strange because if we delve into Christian teaching, it does not lead to anti-feminism and hostility towards women.”

»Unfortunately, the beautiful messages of Christian teaching, such as love, reconciliation, and forgiveness, did not prevail, but rather the constructs of the priests. Even in today’s religious weddings, we hear horrible things: ‘The man is the head of the woman, and the woman should fear her husband.’ There are some enlightened hierarchs who have graduated from other fields beyond theology—for example, the bishop of Syros has also studied Political Science. But they are drops in the ocean of conservatism.

«Δυστυχώς δεν επικράτησαν τα όμορφα μηνύματα της χριστιανικής διδασκαλίας, όπως η αγάπη, η συμφιλίωση, η συγχώρεση, αλλά οι κατασκευές των ιερέων. Ακόμα και στους σημερινούς θρησκευτικούς γάμους ακούμε φρικτά πράγματα: “Ο άντρας, η κεφαλή της γυναικός, η δε γυνή να φοβήται τον άντρα”»

»I will go for cremation in Ritsona [crematorium], my daughter knows it. How many years had to pass for Ritsona to be established? When Kaiti Papariga Kostavara, a distinguished feminist and activist against violence, passed away, a funeral service was held in Greece, and then we went to Bulgaria for the cremation.

»I respect the desire of others to believe, but I do not believe in either an afterlife or all these myths; they clash with my logic. I believe in what Yuval Noah Harari says in his wonderful book ‘Homo Deus,’ that we are biological algorithms processing data. ».

«I do not believe in either an afterlife or all these myths; they clash with my logic. I believe in what Yuval Noah Harari says in his wonderful book ‘Homo Deus,’ that we are biological algorithms processing data».

The interview takes place in her home. In the background, a television plays news about the war in Ukraine. I wonder if the world would be different with more female leaders. Specifically, would it be more peaceful? “My theory, which I have clashed over in the past, is that if we had a gender balance in all decision-making centers, we would undoubtedly have a better world. You might ask, how do you substantiate that? There were Thatcher, Meir… But these were isolated cases, functioning within a system made entirely by men. A system that we have never had the opportunity to reshape.”

»On the other hand, we have the example of the Scandinavian countries, which are leaders in female representation in politics and in gender equality and rights issues, and which undertake international peace initiatives. They confirm that where there is gender equality, there is greater emphasis on social policy, human rights, and all the values that form the value system of women.

»Women have lived in different environments from men. In the past, men occupied the public sphere while women were in the private sphere, at home. Therefore, the two genders have different perceptions, which have resulted in the development of two distinct value systems.

»Let me give another example. When I visited Korydallos Prison as an MEP, I found that out of the 300-350 serious offenders, as we used to call them, there were not even fifteen women—and those were well-known cases across Greece. In any prison around the world, women make up no more than 5% of the inmate population, except for crimes like petty thefts, fraud, etc., where they still do not exceed 25%. Women are less violent than men and possess a value system that supports consent, compassion, and the resolution of conflicts through peaceful means.

»A major success for me is the election of Katerina Sakellaropoulou as President of the Republic. I support her for everything she represents. She is a feminist, an animal lover, and has progressive ideas. These should be the characteristics of our leaders. Years ago, the liberal thinker and philosopher Francis Fukuyama explained in an article why it would be better if women were in power. However, these voices are still isolated.

«A major success for me is the election of Katerina Sakellaropoulou as President of the Republic. I support her for everything she represents. She is a feminist, an animal lover, and has progressive ideas. These should be the characteristics of our leaders.».

»In Ukraine, we are witnessing a terrible, unexpected war with no cause—one that reflects the legacy left by Stalinism and the Soviet Union. On the other hand, I am impressed by the wave of support and compassion, as well as the bravery of the women. Those who did not leave the country—primarily to protect their children—chose to stay behind and are making camouflage for military operations. Some have even taken up arms: they are training alongside men in their use and participating in the war. I also admire the women journalists. If you pay attention to the news broadcasts, you will see more female correspondents than male ones. ».

–Women correspondents, in addition to the danger to their lives, also have to face gender stereotypes, such as the idea that “a mother is not allowed to leave her family and go to war.”».

«Women journalists have a responsibility to promote feminist and humanitarian ideas, as Kalirrhoe Parren did, who initiated the feminist movement in Greece. After all, feminism is humanitarianism. It is equality and justice. My ambition now is to spread my ideas and have my books read. I want to see, while I am alive, a balance of genders in Parliament and a female prime minister. ό».