“Before #MeToo, women did not dare to speak about what was happening to them.”

An experienced trade unionist, a politician for many years, and now the author of an excellent essay on women and their contribution to the struggle of 1821, the former Member of the European Parliament speaks to “NEA” about the feminist movement, its history, its unseen aspects, and the current challenges it faces, just before the presentation of her book on Saturday in the Museum Garden.

Often, uprisings with tangible results have been peaceful. Anna Karamanou firmly believes in a continuous and dynamic struggle focused on women’s rights. You can sense this conviction when you speak with her in person.

The experienced former Member of the European Parliament had the opportunity during the days of lockdown to summarize, re-examine, and draw new conclusions on the issue of women, compiling them into an excellent and rich essay titled “The Peaceful Uprising of Female Sapiens 1821-2021,” published by Armos Editions. In this work, she illuminates the overlooked contributions of women during the 1821 Revolution, while also reflecting on the roots and contradictions of the broader feminist movement, culminating in the #MeToo movement.

Karamanou will discuss and analyze all these topics at the presentation of her book this upcoming Saturday in the Garden of the Museum, featuring a very interesting panel (Nadia Giannakopoulou, Dionysis Gousetis, Anna Diamantopoulou, Maria Repousi, and Andreas Papadopoulos).

At Eleftherias Park, however, where we meet on a Friday afternoon, we have the opportunity to engage in a comprehensive conversation with Karamanou, filled with insights and a generous dose of European spirit from her side.

I’ll start a bit from your book and the title. “The peaceful uprising of female sapiens”…

The emphasis should be on “peaceful uprising”; I used “sapiens” to highlight the humanity of women, which was once questioned. I also used the term “uprising,” which signifies movement, a movement. The whole idea started during the pandemic and two years of lockdown in Syros. I wanted to clarify what had really happened in 200 years of modern Greek history. Many historical events are not clear. How many women participated in the struggle of 1821? And at the same time, how is the personality of Kapodistrias defined? What happened during Otto’s reign? Who was Charilaos Trikoupis? Within this entire context, I wanted to illuminate women’s rights and how the claims for gender equality began. In education and literacy, which were not taken for granted. The right to work, to vote, and even the #MeToo movement. All of these topics are present in my study. Historical knowledge and the silenced aspects of women’s struggles—these are what I researched. Important issues for the foundation of democracy and our Europeanization. The lives of women in the 19th century were difficult. In 1821, they entered the struggle on their own. There was no conscription. And on the battlefield, every gender distinction was abolished! They excelled. Some few historians and foreign observers of the struggle have written about them with great admiration. Obviously, figures like Manto Mavrogenous and Bouboulina stand out.

“But you also write about Ypsilanti.”

Of course, she encouraged and contributed significantly to the birth of the Friendly Society. And those who attempted to incite the Greeks were, of course, Rigas and Korais. The important thing is the voluntary participation of women, which shows great patriotism and self-sacrifice. And then what happened? When the Greek state was established, they were left out and confined to the home. An incredible ingratitude. Even education was considered unnecessary for them. The struggle of women began with the first school for girls established by Kapodistrias in 1829. And certainly, Syros played a pioneering role. It was the Pope’s protected island. In 1834, Otto introduced compulsory education that also applied to girls. However, this was not upheld in practice. Mostly wealthy women were educated, and even then, it was at home; I write in the book about Elena Venizelou. The feminist movement began with a handful of educated women, from the elite. There was propaganda from the Left that everything starts from the proletariat. That is not the case. Just like Kallirroe Paren.

You also talk in detail about Paren.

But she started it.

Does she form a group around her?

Yes. The turning point was in 1887 when she published the “Newspaper of Women.” It caused a great stir. From the very first issue, and that’s why I admire her, she raised the issue of women’s participation in public life. She stated that it is unacceptable for men to have a monopoly on reasoning and judgment. She also referred to Plato’s “Republic.” Something similar was done by Kyriakos Mitsotakis, if you noticed, in his speech at the Congress in the USA. Plato mentioned the equality of the sexes. He made revolutionary statements. He said that if women receive the same education as men, they can equally govern the State. This has not been emphasized enough. But let’s return to Parren. On March 8, 1887, Parren published the newspaper.

Before the establishment of International Women’s Day!

I had written this in an article in “NEA”. Is it possible that they say that in March 1857, the workers in New York went on strike and were beaten by the police? This is a myth. It did not happen. It was to show that the entire women’s movement started with the workers. Our March 8th is when the women’s newspaper was published, which raised groundbreaking issues for the time. There were other pioneering women as well, such as Kalliopi Kehagiya, who founded the first association for women’s education. Paren fought for women to be admitted to universities.

What do you consider to be the most significant institutional reform in our country?

The first reform was for political rights in 1952, under pressure from the UN. Of course, demands for rights had begun at the start of the century throughout Europe, especially in the northern countries that were the first to recognize the right to vote. It’s worth noting that France, a country of Enlightenment and Revolution, only recognized this right in 1944. What propelled women’s education in Greece was the introduction of free education during the era of George Papandreou – Papanoutsos – Louki Akrithas in 1964, which faced significant opposition. Papoutsos had attended a reception where diplomats asked him, “What changes are these? Did you consult other political leaders?” He replied, “Would Luther have made reforms if he had asked for permission from the Pope?” We all have an idea of major historical events, but they are not entirely clear. Now, for instance, I understand why Greece’s borders were delineated, and it owes everything to Eleftherios Venizelos.

How did he view the women’s issue?

Venizelos was initially cautious. However, he contributed to women’s rights. I’ll give you an example. A minister from our side once told me when I raised issues of equality, “Anna, it’s one thing when you say it and another when there are 50,000 women under my desk demanding it.” It’s not enough to be right; the power dynamics are necessary. Just like now.

Now?

We still have deep patriarchy with the consent of women. Steps have been taken, but even with the data from 2021, we are still far behind in terms of rights. Before coming here, I was looking at the data from the European Institute for Gender Equality (EIGE).

With a worse index?

Our worst indicator is the participation of women in institutions and decision-making centers. A country is not European where its national parliament has 240 men and 60 women. Nor with 313 men and 19 women mayors. I apologize for stating it so bluntly. No one has spoken out except for George Papandreou, who is a true feminist. This is also due to the struggles of Margarita Papandreou. And of course, Maragopoulou. Again, the most educated women were pioneers.

There was a quota nonetheless in the 2019 ballots for Local Government.

Yes, in candidacies. I support a 50-50 ratio in quotas. We already have more women in master’s and doctoral programs. This is a trend in Europe. Working women are more educated than men. However, there are still stereotypes and prejudices. Did you see the PASOK-KINAL conference? But the candidacies for the presidency were only from men. Do you know why this happens? Because the party does not have a gender equality policy. And in the Central Committee, we had few women. Up to position 29 in the new Central Committee, we did not have any women.

In SYRIZA?

SYRIZA performed better. Because they have a strong feminist policy department. PASOK does not have that. We had it during the Metapolitefsi (the period after the fall of the junta). And feminism is advanced mathematics.

Why do you say that?

So many educated women say, ‘I am not a feminist.’ Does that mean you are against gender equality? Or do they want to be liked by men, or are they afraid of being told that they are not feminine enough? Feminism has been defamed and has been identified with extreme situations. But that’s not the case.

The fact, however, that we have a female President of the Republic?

This is great. I am very happy. Because it signifies further advancement for women. It symbolically shows that women can serve in the highest state institution, and she has proven that women can govern better. In my book, I have a study from Harvard. Where there were women leaders during the pandemic, we had lower mortality rates. The (feminine) characteristics that were considered detrimental to the prestige of a male politician are now what need to be strengthened: empathy, compassion, and the ability to listen carefully to others, which men do not do. A key complaint from women is that men do not listen to women’s issues. And Katerina Sakellaropoulou has brought something special to the institution. A woman who is an ecologist, a feminist, an animal lover, who has empathy, and goes to people in need. Who else has done that? The qualitative difference is evident. And kudos to Mitsotakis.

How do you view #MeToo?

“Women have been liberated. They did not dare to speak about what was happening to them. The doctrine of ‘what is in the home should not be spoken in public’ prevailed. Mouths were hermetically sealed. As women rise, the violence against them intensifies. There are men who do not accept that the conditions of ‘female subservience’ will change or are already changing. They say this is nature; even intellectuals of the European Enlightenment used to say that. Condorcet had excellent views, and then John Stuart Mill. He too, Mill, suffered greatly. In Greece, for years there were no individual rights.”

So, the new Family Law in 1983 was a milestone for our country.

Certainly. The breakthroughs were in 1952, 1964, and 1983 with the new Family Law. The major transformation occurred in the 1980s.

So PASOK and a broader movement played a progressive role.

Of course. But there was also pressure from Europe. However, the spirit of Europe has not yet reached 100% in our country.

Which is the most progressive country in Europe today in this field?

Sweden, Iceland.

And in post-war Europe, what was the most significant document?

The 119th article of the Treaty of Rome. Equality in professional and general relations. They were forced in the 1990s to create directives to implement certain measures. A decisive factor preventing many of these from advancing in our country is the Church.

Are there not enlightened segments within the clergy?

Anastasios of Albania, yes.

What is your comment on the issue of Mount Athos?

No politician dares to take the initiative. What modernization has the Church brought? If I credit something positive to Christianity, it is that it was the first to speak of equality among people. Do you see this being upheld? Look at how someone in Russia today blesses weapons to kill citizens in Ukraine. Whatever is attempted as a modernizing breakthrough in our country faces backlash. Now we also have the monster of populism and social networks. Once we had the green, red, and blue cafés, now we have the great digital café. Everyone shares their nonsense. There is also a clash against the elites. But there is also a challenge to science, intellectualism, and democratic institutions. Regarding women, respect has diminished. I hear and see the incredible sexism through trap music.

One last thing, since you have extensive experience as a Member of the European Parliament. How do you see Europe today?

Europe today is under pressure. It has a security dependence on America and an energy dependence on the East. We also have a leadership issue. I believe in the role of leadership. Some always take the lead.