Interview in the newspaper *GNOMI* of Alexandroupolis on the occasion of the presentation of her book *Europe and Women’s Rights – Europeanization in Greece and Turkey*.
Interview with Anna Karamanou in the newspaper *GNOMI* of Alexandroupolis, March 2018, on the occasion of the presentation of her book *Europe and Women’s Rights – Europeanization in Greece and Turkey*. Εκδ. Παπαζήση
–What does your book include and what is its aim?
The book includes the history of feminist struggles over the past 200 years in Greece and Turkey, in light of the early European orientation of the two countries and their pursuit of European identity. It is an exciting journey through historical events that begin in the 19th century with the 1821 revolution, the decline of the Ottoman Empire, and the onset of feminist struggles for rights and gender equality, continuing to the present day. The aim of the book is, through the dialogue between the present and the past, to highlight, analyze, and compare the influence of the European system and European values in two peripheral countries that did not participate in the Renaissance and the European Enlightenment. My goal is, through the struggles of women and the historical events connected with Europe’s influence, to contribute to a deeper understanding of the conditions and common elements that shaped the political, social, cultural, and economic realities of both countries. My comparative analysis showed that beyond geographical proximity, there is a cultural kinship between Greece and Turkey, which, among other things, is evidenced by the popularity of Turkish TV series in Greece!
– In your book, you maken your book, you compare the social and economic status of Greek women with that of women in Turkey. How difficult is it to be a woman in Erdogan’s Turkey?
The comparison focuses on the social position of women in two countries with different historical trajectories but also relationships of conqueror and conquered. The differences are significant; however, there are similarities in many areas: delayed economic and social structures, clientelist political systems, discrimination and violence against women, strong religiosity, and an inability to establish a modern, mature democracy and rule of law. As a result, women in both countries face particular challenges in fully exercising their democratic rights, gender devaluation, and entrenched beliefs that result in discrimination and inequalities against women.
In Turkey, the position of women is especially difficult under Erdogan, who, using Islam as a vehicle, proclaims in no uncertain terms that he does not believe in gender equality and simultaneously promotes the “three-child policy,” with the primary goal of returning women to the home and traditional roles. However, there has also emerged a strong pro-European feminist movement in Turkey that exerts pressure, supported by the EU, particularly the Committee on Women’s Rights and Gender Equality in the European Parliament, which, through a resolution, has stated that “without gender equality, Turkey will not enter the European Union.”
A few days ago, European politicians celebrated the 100th anniversary of the right to vote being granted for the first time to certain women in the UK. Do women still find themselves in a disadvantaged position in the realm of political life?
Despite the progress made since then, in the early 20th century, when suffragettes were being arrested and imprisoned, discrimination, both indirect and direct, persists and endures. There is no balanced distribution of power and responsibilities between men and women, neither in the public nor in the private sphere, which would practically embody the principles of democracy and gender justice. From the perspective of utilizing human resources, today’s gender imbalance in political life constitutes a waste of the abilities and knowledge of more than half of the population. The participation of women in politics and public office does not follow the progress achieved in other fields. It is noteworthy that women make up 60% of university students in Greece, even in postgraduate programs. In the judiciary, it is 45%. For the first time in history, working women appear to be more educated than men and show greater interest in the arts. The majority of those attending theatrical performances, concerts, and exhibitions are female.
The average wages of women in Europe lag behind men by 16.3%, and by 16.8% in the eurozone. In Greece, the so-called pay gap is estimated at 15%. In well-paid positions of responsibility, women are very few. At the same time, women are employed, much more than men, in important but unpaid tasks, such as household work and caring for children and dependent individuals. It has been estimated that men spend, on average, 9 hours per week on unpaid work, while women spend 22, that is, 4 hours daily. In the labor market, one-third of women work part-time, while only 1 in 10 men do. Different choices in education usually lead to different career paths. As is well known, the professional sectors dominated by women have lower wages. During the crisis period, these problems worsened further.
According to the latest global ranking by the WEF for gender equality indicators (2017 data), Greece ranks 78th out of 144 countries. However, neighboring countries that also lived under Ottoman rule for a long time show greater progress in women’s rights: Albania at 38th, FYROM at 67th, Bulgaria at 18th, Serbia at 40th, Bosnia and Herzegovina at 66th, Slovenia at 7th, and Croatia at 54th. The European Institute for Gender Equality ranks Greece last among EU countries. These figures confirm the delay of our country and its deeply patriarchal structure. The road to substantive gender equality remains long and difficult.
–To what extent does patriarchy persist in decision-making positions?
Patriarchy is a global historical phenomenon. In Greece, it appears with particular intensity. In 2015, in the Cabinet, ministers and deputy ministers were 14.3% of the Greek Government, with an average European rate of 26.8%. Women members of Parliament were 23.3% in January 2015 and 18.3% in September of the same year, with an average European rate of 27.7%. Members of Regional Councils were 19.7% in Greece, with an EU average of 28%. There were only 2 female regional governors out of 15 regions, and only 15 female mayors out of 325. Regarding the management of large businesses and women’s participation in boards, the percentage in Greece is 9.3%, with a European average of 21.7%. In the Board of the Central Bank, it is 2.8%, with a European average of 19.4%, and in the management of public organizations, it is 18.2%, with a European average of 32.2%. Patriarchy remains strong and unyielding.
– You have stated that the Greek Orthodox Church is an archaic institution, completely absent from issues of women’s rights and gender equality. In what ways could this situation be reversed?
Unfortunately, in our country, there has not yet appeared a figure similar to Luther, who 500 years ago had the courage to challenge the paid indulgence of sins, the omnipotence, and infallibility of the Pope. The Greek Orthodox Church, and Orthodoxy in general, remains monolithic and attached to traditions that have nothing to do with modern social development, dragging into anachronism the countries where it dominates, such as the Balkans and Eastern Europe. The Church has never supported gender equality, obviously because it does not consider women as full citizens with rights. It is the only institution that excludes women from all positions, both lower and higher. Women, however, can study in theological schools, but are excluded from the priesthood and access to Mount Athos, in violation of the Constitution and all international agreements on gender equality. In my book, I write that there is a causal relationship between the monolithic nature of the Church, its undemocratic structure, its entanglement with state power, and the discrimination against women. The treatment of women as citizens with limited rights is in complete contrast to the values of democracy and political liberalism, as well as to the essence of Christian teaching, which is based on the equality of all people (there is neither male nor female).
Reversing this situation requires the mobilization of women themselves, but also political will, which is absent. In the EU countries and the US, a feminist theology movement has developed over the years, which has fought hard battles for the attainment of the priesthood for women and their elevation to the highest ecclesiastical positions. In our country, some progressive voices, both women and men, are drowned in the ocean of conservatism and anachronism.
-Would you like to comment on the global #MeToo movement and the revelations made by public figures regarding sexual harassment?
I support and endorse it! This movement paves the way for the substantial strengthening of women’s confidence, dignity, and self-esteem worldwide, enabling them to report any abuse of power and violence against them, until their complete eradication.
–Are you satisfied with the programs of Greek political parties regarding gender equality and the treatment of women within them?
Gender equality and the effective utilization of women’s abilities are crushed within the harsh competition for power positions. The issue is not a priority for any political party. There are no programs that would promote increased participation of women in the political life of the country. Women’s organizations are not funded. The quota system adopted, in most cases, has been used to humiliate and discourage women.
Political parties, and even more so labor unions, sustain and reproduce the division of labor by gender, the hierarchy based on gender, male supremacy, and the exclusion of women from power structures. The demand for balanced participation in decision-making is treated as a zero-sum game, with the labor movement remaining the most hostile space to women’s claims.
In Greece, the best example of gender equality and the utilization of female potential is the Municipality of Athens, under the mayoralty of Giorgos Kaminis. The 10 positions of deputy mayors were fairly distributed between men and women, the president of the City Council is a woman, and women make up the majority in the councils of the local districts of the municipality.
I would like to emphasize that everything achieved so far is primarily due to the beneficial influence of the EU and the actions of feminist organizations. These organizations, from the 19th century to the present, are the only civil society organizations that, with the banner of European values and human rights, dynamically challenge patriarchal structures, monolithic traditions, and gender power relations.
–In light of International Women’s Day, which will be celebrated in the coming days, what message would you like to send?
I would like to address mainly young women and encourage them, based on their impressive performance in education and all meritocratic systems, to further utilize the legislation and the ideal framework provided by European policies, so that the European ideal of gender equality and justice becomes a lived reality. At the same time, I urge them to shift the focus from the weaknesses and problems of women to the strength they possess, in order to lead the political struggle for the creation of a better, more peaceful, and fairer globalized world. “To succeed where men have failed!” as the pioneering feminist Kalirohi Paren said 100 years ago.
-It is known that you were awarded the prize Abdi İpekçi Award. How do you view the recent tensions between Turkey and Greece?
The fact that around 4,000 Turkish citizens have applied for political asylum in Greece highlights Turkey’s slide under Erdogan into an authoritarian state, which behaves dangerously and irrationally in its foreign policy. After the collapse of Davutoglu’s “zero problems” doctrine with neighboring countries, Erdogan’s megalomania and lust for power have unraveled in full force, creating tensions throughout the region, including with Greece. The issues that had arisen in the past, which we naively thought had been relegated to the past, remain unresolved and are worsening, not only due to Turkey’s fault. Greece’s procrastination and constant postponement of resolution have a share of responsibility for the current tension (Turkish claims in the Aegean, continental shelf, Imia, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Cyprus). All these issues await resolution at a later time, which proves to be worse. Additionally, there is Greece’s inability or incapacity to utilize the European framework and activate the mutual assistance clause provided in Article 42(7) of the Lisbon Treaty. Instead of addressing the problems seriously, with the goal of resolving them as quickly as possible through honest compromises (this is the way problems are solved everywhere), we resort to foolish cries and threats, with the defense minister parading in camouflage, provoking everyone with his nationalist rhetoric.
Personally, even in these current difficult times, I remain a supporter of dialogue, good neighborliness, and the peaceful resolution of any differences, faithful to the spirit of the Greco-Turkish Friendship Pact between Venizelos and Atatürk, signed on October 30, 1930. Yes to patriotism, no to nationalism!