Interview with Mrs. Pappa

Interview

Answers by Anna Karamano

QUESTIONNAIRE

1. Ms. Karamano, after doing a search on the world wide web for you, I discovered many things I didn’t know. You seem to be a “fulfilled woman”, in the sense that you have great achievements in both your professional and personal life. Honestly, did you have a happy childhood? How did you imagine your life back then?

I had a calm and probably happy childhood, and this was supported by the many rewards I received as a child. I happened to enjoy reading and be a good student at all levels of education, which brought joy to both me and my parents. From a young age, I didn’t like mediocrity and wouldn’t settle for not being among the most diligent in class. “Always strive for excellence“ Was my guiding principle. This doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy playing during my childhood. My neighborhood, in itself, was a whole fairy-tale playground. Additionally, I loved the summers we spent at our estate, just two kilometers away from the city, an estate with vineyards, pear trees, almond trees, sour cherry trees, fig trees, and any other fruit-bearing tree you can imagine. I was fascinated by the harvest of black raisins and the crushing of grapes. It was a real celebration! I felt joy and happiness. I sang a lot when I was young and I also painted very well. But when asked what I wanted to be when I grew up, I answered, without hesitation, a teacher! Until adolescence, life was beautiful and carefree! At 17, I went to California for a year on a scholarship. American Field Service, I stayed with an American family and attended college. I lived a carefree life. Then came adulthood, with both good and bad days, with successes and also many missed opportunities. Isn’t that the process of life?

2. For many years, you have been a passionate advocate for gender equality and women’s rights. How did you start to get involved with this issue, and who were the women who influenced and sensitized you from the beginning of the feminist movement to the point where you can define them today?

I was born into a very traditional and strict society in Pyrgos, Ilia, which always judged men and women with double standards. From an early age, I felt what it meant to experience discrimination based on gender. In my own family, I realized that my brother, who was two years younger than me, had much more freedom than I did or my younger sister. I fully understood what gender discrimination meant when, after elementary school, at the age of 12, we were separated: boys went to one school, girls to another. I was very troubled by this, I didn’t like it. At that time, we didn’t have co-education. That came later, in 1977. From a very young age, I questioned why this was happening, why we had to be in separate schools for boys and girls. Generally, I asked many questions; I was very curious and skeptical. Later, I wondered why our school – the girls’ school – had a classical direction, while the boys’ school was focused on a scientific curriculum. So, the good male students were destined for the Polytechnic, while at the Girls’ Gymnasium in Pyrgos, where I graduated, the good female students – and I was among them – were destined for the Philosophy faculties. The paths for the two genders were different. In terms of mentality, prevailing beliefs, and societal expectations, the main goal for girls was marriage and family. This was also my mother’s dream.

However, I was fortunate from my childhood to be influenced by a very dynamic aunt of mine, my father’s sister. She worked in the public sector as a teacher, and she was both very strict and, at the same time, very progressive for her time. There are many testimonies to this. For example, at a time when there were mandatory quotas for the rejection and non-promotion of students to the next grade, she never failed a child, not so much out of compassion, but for public interest! She argued that it was not in the country’s best interest to keep children in the same grade and deprive society of the labor they could contribute, even as unskilled workers. She believed that a child who didn’t grasp the lessons and had been held back for two or three years was not going to learn any more. She had the courage to confront inspectors and ministers over this matter. And of course, she was later proven right with the educational reform. I felt deeply moved a few years ago when a journalist asked me if I was related to her, the teacher, Angeliki Karamano. He praised her! What an amazing teacher, what a pioneering woman! 50 years ahead of her time! This woman was the bright role model for me, the strong personality I greatly admired.

Later, in my adult life, I greatly admired the Prime Minister of Norway, Gro Harlem Brundtland, a politician, diplomat, and doctor, with five children, always at the forefront of political action, mainly for sustainable development, gender equality, and public health. Among Greek women, I was inspired by feminists Aliki Giotopoulou-Maragopoulou and Margarita Papandreou. Their contribution to advancing women’s rights and gender equality was decisive and invaluable.

3. When the crisis broke out in 2009, 2010, if all political forces had united, perhaps our country could have been saved. In your opinion, what mistakes were made at that time, and what is the responsibility of the Greek people?

Greece would have successfully faced the crisis if all political forces had reached an agreement and united, as was the case in Portugal, Spain, and Ireland. Unfortunately, here, the civil war instincts once again prevailed. The narrow interests of the political parties and factions took precedence over the country’s interest. Of course, this was also influenced by the inexperience of George Papandreou, who agreed to sign the first memorandum on his own instead of seeking the shared responsibility of all parties during such a critical time for the country. Evangelos Venizelos had proposed a higher parliamentary majority, but Papandreou did not listen. Thus, PASOK alone carried the entire burden, leaving the others free to engage in sterile opposition. The collapse of PASOK was inevitable. At the same time, New Democracy, whose reckless patronage politics in the 2004-2009 period led the country into massive debt, emerged unscathed. All these factors brought Greece and the Greek people into a dire situation. Both New Democracy with the Zappeia plans and SYRIZA with their blatant lies aimed solely at seizing power, not saving the country from economic destruction. During the crisis, from 2010 to today, PASOK, despite its mistakes which harmed itself, was the only party that acted based on national interest alone. However, this was not appreciated.

As for the Greek people, they are certainly not innocent. They bear responsibility for their choices and their preference for the clientelist political system, instead of meritocracy and the rule of law. Unfortunately, 200 years after the 1821 revolution, the legacy of the Ottoman Empire remains very strong. We are still far from modern European systems. The fact that Greece did not participate in the Renaissance and the European Enlightenment movements largely explains the current deficiencies in all areas of political, economic, and social life. Greece, as a country on the European periphery, remained ambivalent, caught between its Eastern culture and European values. This prevented us from fully utilizing our membership in the Community. Today, we are paying the price for our Balkan carefreeness.

Underdevelopment and the climate of lawlessness and illegality that prevails were recently tragically reflected in the floods of Mandra. This followed illegal construction in riverbeds and the rewarding of lawbreakers with reduced fines! Meanwhile, anti-flood projects remained stuck in the gears of bureaucracy and incompetence. In any case, the responsibility of those in power who manage the country’s fate is much greater than that of ordinary citizens.

4. In any case, at this moment, Greece is at the bottom among the countries of the European Union. Do you believe it can eventually recover, and how?

With such an enormous debt, the state of public administration, and the mindset of those in power, I do not see any substantial recovery, not even with binoculars, although by nature I am an optimistic person. We have not been fortunate enough to design our own national program to exit the crisis. We allowed others to design and decide for us, before us. The saying “in unity there is strength” applies everywhere, except in our beautiful country. In the early 1990s, Sweden faced a major crisis which it resolved through the consensus of the government, opposition, and citizens, proceeding with measures to stabilize public spending, implementing structural reforms, and development policies. We have proven to be much inferior to the circumstances, forcing the best minds to emigrate in search of a better future in more meritocratic and consensual systems.

Recovery would require a true revolution in the organization of the Greek state and in Greek culture. That is, a genuine cultural revolution, because the crisis in Greece is primarily cultural and secondarily economic. How can the country move forward when we cannot even communicate on the basics? When over-taxation has crippled the middle class, and when, in the digital age we live in, development measures have been replaced by charity handouts and the further growth of the bureaucratic monster? When “aien aristevin” (always excel) has been ostracized from the education system? There are so many good examples in the EU. We could copy one of them, instead of continuing our old self-destructive habits.

5. Recently, there have been efforts to restructure the PASOK party in order to play a leading role in the country’s political scene again. Do you believe that, after everything that has happened in the last few years, it is capable of keeping up with modern reality?

PASOK is credited with the most prosperous period in modern Greek history and represents a very dynamic segment of the population. Already, through the efforts to restructure the center-left and progressive center, signs of recovery and regrouping of forces are visible. The massive turnout at the polls during the elections for the leadership of the new party showed that there is considerable political space between New Democracy and SYRIZA. This is the middle ground, Aristotle’s golden mean, avoiding the extremes. European social democracy, political liberalism, and ecology parties belong to this space. Mrs. Gennimata, who was elected president from a broad base, seems determined to renew and provide a future for the evolving new party, the Movement for Change. Of course, our male-dominated political system refuses to recognize her leadership abilities. However, if one observes, as an objective observer, the statements and speeches of the leaders in Parliament, it becomes evident that Gennimata is in a position to confront and oppose Tsipras much better than Mitsotakis.

6. At the center of your interests and actions are social and international politics, lifelong education, gender equality, and human rights. Has all this multitasking left you feeling unsatisfied in any area? Is there something you would like to focus on that you haven’t yet pursued?

Yes. Painting! In my childhood, I felt real happiness when I painted. I was very good at it! During Christmas, I would paint the windows of my house, as well as the school windows, which were then located in the central square of Pyrgos. My high school principal would give me the keys to turn on the lights of the school in the evening. The sight was festive and spectacular! I wanted to attend the School of Fine Arts, but life took me in another direction. I also liked music, piano, and I attended the National Conservatory for two years, but then I got involved with other things and left it. I think I was more of an artistic than a political nature. My plans were overturned by my early marriage, after my mother’s insistence that I marry my first boyfriend. Her ambition, in line with the spirit of the time, was for me to marry and have children. Even though I was an excellent student, she insisted that it was enough for me to have a job (at OTE), a family, and nothing else. However, when I realized that I had to take responsibility for my own life and no one else, I took it into my own hands and pursued studies, first in philology and later in postgraduate studies and a PhD. I fulfilled my desire for more knowledge and education. In the meantime, I forgot to tell you that before I went to the European Parliament (1997), there had been two divorces. As for painting and the piano, they are still waiting… I’ve missed many episodes, but I don’t think the train has left yet.

7. I have read that you openly support Mr. Kaminis, considering him a capable leader who can expand the Democratic Party. You have written: “Kaminis possesses all the qualities of a leader: deep education, faith in democratic principles and humanitarian values, courtesy, decisiveness, integrity of character, affability, honesty. He deserves to be the leader of the new party.” In a field like politics, where corruption and collusion dominate, are the qualitative characteristics of a leader enough on their own to help us overcome the deadlocks in which we, as a country, have fallen?

I chose to vote for George Kaminis because he possesses all the qualitative characteristics of a leader, to a greater degree than the other candidates. Furthermore, I deeply appreciate his humanitarian approach to solving problems, as demonstrated by his management of the refugee crisis and the social policies he implements. Thousands of homeless and hungry individuals have found shelter, food, and socio-economic support from the Municipality of Athens. The Deputy Mayor of Social Policy, Maria Stratigaki, has performed a miracle! Social work is George Kaminis’ top priority, and he continuously expands the scope of action into new areas. Moreover, he has streamlined the municipality’s finances. He inherited a debt of 47 million and now has a surplus of 27 million. I think that if he had managed the national debt, he would have done just as well!

Politics cannot be, and is not, a space for corruption and vested interests, more than other sectors. The problem of corruption is universal and spreads everywhere. This does not mean that there are no honest citizens and politicians. Heaven forbid, we do not live in Africa. We are, of course, the last country in the EU in terms of economy and gender equality. Such democrats! That’s why we need leaders like Kaminis to move forward. We must be governed by the honest, the wise, and the best. I insist on Aristotelian and Platonic principles!

8. Throughout this journey, which political figure that you met impressed you the most and why, either in Greece or abroad?

In Greece, Costas Simitis, for the same reasons I mentioned about Giorgos Kaminis. He had clear social-democratic ideas and a vision for Greece and Europe in the 21st century. His books and analyses deeply influenced my political thinking. Abroad, Martin Schulz. Personally, as president of the European Parliament’s Women’s Committee and a member of the Presidency of the Socialist Group, I had the opportunity to meet with him very frequently when he was the president of the Socialist Group. A capable and worthy politician!

9. What is your relationship with social media (Facebook, Twitter)? Do you respond to your “friends”?

My relationship with social media is far from one of passion. While I don’t underestimate their role, I prefer live and meaningful friendships and discussions. However, I try to respond to those who reach out to me and participate in discussions. I usually don’t have enough available time. Still, I appreciate that social networks work positively for many people, whether they need to communicate, converse, or debate with friends or supposed friends via media, or seek validation through the likes they receive for posting various, more or less clever, things. Often, narcissism is in excess… It’s also part of human nature…

10. Closing, I would like to ask you to tell us what you dream for the future.

A peaceful life, with good health, more time for reading, writing books, traveling, and cultural events, as well as more live communication with my daughter, my three granddaughters, and dear friends. I would also like to share the experience and knowledge I gained from my political actions with young women and encourage them to confidently pursue high leadership positions and public offices. For this purpose, I am currently preparing a seminar on behalf of the Women’s Political Association, of which I am vice president. I dream of a fair distribution of economic and political power between men and women. Women are a force for renewal and change. I also dream of a Greece free from foreign guardianship, with greater self-awareness, self-confidence, and the recovery of the prosperity it enjoyed during the post-dictatorship period, until 2010. Let’s celebrate the 200th anniversary of the 1821 Revolution with a cultural revolution of values.

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29.11.2017