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ANNA KARAMANOU: Equal opportunities for women. “Preferential treatment” relates to a system that many do not like, but we operate within it. I believe the time has come to create an insurance system of equal rights and obligations. Interview of Anna KARAMANOU with Fofi KORIDI 17. 02. 2002

Anna Karamanu is highly combative. She passionately defends her beliefs and is full of energy. Her opinions often provoke reactions, as well as our interest, and become the subject of discussion.

In person, she is a sweet person, and the constant back-and-forth between Athens, Strasbourg, and Brussels does not deter her at all. On the contrary, it motivates her to be more tenacious. Her recent election as president of the Committee on Women’s Rights and Gender Equality in the EU gives her the opportunity to fight from a position of strength for what she believes in so passionately: equal opportunities for all.

In her new office in Strasbourg, we talked in person. We discussed the social security system, Mount Athos, and OTE…

Your sensitivity towards women has often put you in a difficult position, due to certain views of yours that are seen as extreme, such as allowing women to enter Mount Athos. Your statement about women’s retirement at 65 sparked reactions, especially given your early retirement from OTE. Some even said you should renounce that privilege before expressing such opinions…

Do you know anyone who has renounced their pension? Yes, I’m hitting a system that gave me a pension at 44, when my daughter was 21. I had no other option. I wanted to leave OTE and change my career. I didn’t ask to receive a pension; OTE granted it to me. The “preferential treatment” relates to a system that many do not like, but we operate within it. This system aimed to send women home to provide better services to men. I believe the time has come to create a social security system of equal rights and obligations. This benefits women. There should be no discrimination based on gender. Motherhood should be supported in a timely manner. When you have young children, the state should support you with paid parental leave. We proposed these ideas at the seminar when the uproar broke out, but they didn’t make it to the press. Personally, I didn’t even mention the phrase “65 years.” Moreover, I support a flexible system, as you will see in the forthcoming book with the proceedings. A contributory system, not the one I experienced at OTE, where my advancement was undermined from the very beginning. No matter how many degrees or qualifications you had, as a woman you were never going to reach a high position.

At the seminar, we proposed a three-pillar system. The first pillar would be a basic national pension provided to everyone at 60 or 65. The second would be contributory based on payments, and the third would be individual savings (capitalization). In the second pillar, one could retire from 55 if they wish to pursue other activities. However, I insist on setting a limit that does not discriminate against women. We don’t want privileges; we want equal treatment.
Another significant issue is the distribution of pension rights. This practically means that if I stay out of the labor market to raise our children and my husband leaves me at 50, then at 55, I won’t be left hanging but will be entitled to a portion of his pension, whether he remarries or not. A woman who has never worked but has dedicated herself to raising children and supporting her husband’s career should have her own individual insurance rights. Women are perhaps the most qualified to speak on this issue, not unionists who don’t have a single woman as a representative on the Executive Committee of GSEE and ADEDY…

From the transition to… Mount Athos

In how many years do you think this situation could transform into equal opportunities?

For the pension system, there should be a transitional period of 10-15 years. Some women have already made their plans, and you can’t overturn that overnight. The only way to protect our dignity is through economic independence. Our message, therefore, is: Career first and then family, supported by both genders. Women represent 61.2% of all graduates. Where does all this scientific potential go?

And the story with Mount Athos?

Regarding Mount Athos, I was annoyed that the issue started outside Greece, initiated by Scandinavian MEPs. At that time, I felt that the matter primarily concerns the women of Greece and, secondarily, other European women. The follow-up (May 2001) relates to my own proposal from an opinion in the Committee on Civil Liberties and Human Rights, which stated that women should not be excluded from any geographical area of the planet. No tradition and no culture is acceptable when it violates the fundamental rights and freedoms of women. The decision to exclude women from Mount Athos does not pertain to theology or Christian teaching. It was made during the dark Middle Ages, reflecting the social reality of the time when women in Europe lived in conditions worse than those under the Taliban.

Even women who agree in the name of equal opportunities declare that they would not go if entry was permitted, respecting the mysterious and historical nexus of conditions of the space…

Monasteries can remain closed, but the exclusion from an area of 400 square kilometers does not hold up logically and is not based on any religious text. I cannot accept, for example, that Ms. Arbelér cannot access the archives or library of Mount Athos. No one is suggesting that we go there to scandalize. In fact, I publicly proposed that the gates be opened one or two days a week for both women and men. In Greece, as soon as you suggest something innovative, you are attacked en masse. This is not about a lack of respect for religion, which I am also concerned about in its universal role. Moreover, this exclusion is nothing more than a symbol of the patriarchal nature of society and the Church, which has persisted for many centuries. If the Church wants to maintain its influence and positive role, it must align its steps with modern developments and needs. The last thirty years have seen the most significant changes in the course of humanity. You cannot accept all this advancement in science and technology and remain behind in terms of ideas.

Renewal is essential.

In a woman’s daily life, the more serious issue is the fear of losing her position due to pregnancy upon returning to work, rather than whether or not she can enter Mount Athos.

I apologize, everything matters. Clearly, the economic aspect takes precedence, but all the symbols of misogyny have significance. Moreover, the discrimination against women in the labor market is tied to these traditional roles. When you consider women solely responsible for raising children and household chores, you strip them of opportunities and potential in the workplace. The message is to fairly share all obligations and joys of private and public life between men and women. Respect for tradition is important when it does not conflict with the modern understanding of respect for rights and gender equality. In Muslim countries, 2 million women undergo sexual mutilation (Africa) under the guise of tradition. Isn’t the burqa and the chador also justified by the same traditions? In those same countries, traditions allow men to dress in the latest European fashion. Well, I have no respect for that culture.

What impression did the meeting with the Dalai Lama leave on you?

Very good. He is a kind and intelligent person. It’s no coincidence that Buddhism is gaining ground in Europe, as it addresses contemporary issues. They have also revised their ideas and do not separate the two genders. I remember that when we told the Dalai Lama that Buddhism in Europe is a trend, he replied that he does not like this trend at all. He emphasized that “all religions are good and people should not be cut off from their roots.” And we (mainly Roman Catholics) conduct missions in Africa to uproot people from their traditions and Christianize them! On the other hand, one more advantage of the Dalai Lama is the core of his teachings, which is based on the peaceful resolution of differences and the non-use of violence.

Olympic Truce and the Taliban.

What practical foundation does your trip to the Middle East, in support of the Olympic Truce, have? Is Greece seeking to play an active mediating role?

I believe that Greece has taken very important initiatives on the international stage that have enhanced its prestige. The initiative to promote the idea of the Olympic Truce is significant, especially in light of the Winter Olympics. The decision of the Greek Foreign Minister to send missions to crisis areas was a very wise move to convey the message of peace. We aspire to play a peaceful role on a global scale and to establish a conciliatory profile. This is very important for our country, which, although small, can play a significant role in international affairs.

You ring the alarm bell on issues that later become prominent in current events, such as the regime of the Taliban (since ’97). Is it easy to awaken public opinion in the genesis and not in the evolution of the evil?

I don’t know if I know the right timing, but I do know that I have a particular sensitivity to human rights issues, especially concerning women. Millions of women around the world suffer from fundamentalist and undemocratic regimes. The first thing the Taliban did in Afghanistan, for example, was to deprive women of their fundamental rights. Most countries, like Greece, tend to focus more on their immediate surroundings, and Afghanistan seemed very distant. However, with the collapse of borders, international problems affect our own lives, and the media are starting to become more sensitized. This was evident in the recent case of the Nigerian woman who was sentenced to death by stoning for giving birth to her child out of wedlock, while she was already a victim of rape! On the other hand, we see the reintroduction of Sharia in Nigeria, where just two years ago we celebrated the establishment of democracy. In Europe, many problems from the Third World are transferred through migration. The British Medical Association announced that 3,000 clitoridectomies are performed in Britain…