Newspaper “STYLE OF ORTHODOXY”

The positions of Ms. Anna Karamanou, MEP of PASOK, on the abolition of the ban at Mount Athos, on the ordination of women, and on the abolition of any ecclesiastical tradition that, in her opinion, creates discrimination between the two genders, are certain to provoke a variety of reactions and seem foreign to many.

Many of the positions of the PASOK MEP are included in proposals that have periodically been put forward by the PASOK Women’s Sector to the government and their party. Therefore, they are not new. It is simply that Ms. Karamanou has the courage to declare them publicly. The director of “S.O.” spoke with Ms. Karamanou and presents today her views on Europe, the war in Iraq, the role of the churches, the ban at Mount Athos, and even the ordination of women. This is an interview that is certain to provoke a variety of discussions and reactions, not only from the Church but also from the government itself.

• These days we are witnessing a crime being committed against the Iraqi people. We all wonder, what did the European Parliament do, what did the EU do?

First of all, the European Parliament does not have the power that other EU institutions have. The European Parliament clearly opposed the war in a timely manner and, since January, it has issued a resolution against a war in Iraq. The European Parliament had consistently supported that Iraq’s disarmament should be achieved through diplomatic means and had supported the work of the inspectors. Beyond that, as you know, the EU does not have a common foreign policy or a common security policy. Greece, which holds the presidency of the European Union for this semester, made very hard efforts to unify Europe’s positions, to have a common stance, a unified stance, but this was not possible.

• Do you believe that the war is being waged for the disarmament of Iraq or for economic interests?

It is being done for economic interests, primarily to confirm the hegemony of the United States in the region, more for the oil. I think political games are also being played in the region, and after all, it is well known that the goal of the United States is not just Iraq; it is mainly Iran, North Korea. Geopolitical games, power games, are being played.

• And the humanitarian values?

Of course, humanitarian values should prevail on the planet, there is no doubt about that. The most blasphemous and contradictory thing is that these people, who started the war against Iraq, invoke God. Mr. Bush and his group constantly invoke God to bless American weapons. And they have this simplistic logic that they are waging a war against evil, against the axis of evil, which is Iraq. I was reading an article today, responding also to what you said earlier about their goal, that the goal is not just Iraq. A senior official said that everyone wants to go to Baghdad, but real men want to go to Iran. Therefore, there is a whole plan that has begun to unfold.

Until the last moment, I believed they would not start the war amidst this global outcry, because what is happening right now is unprecedented. There has never been such a mobilization on a global scale, and this is one of the positive aspects of globalization. I believe that through this crisis, things can emerge that we can’t even imagine. It could lead to a different order of things, where we move from a period of passivity among citizens to a new period where citizens will participate more actively in decision-making.

• How do you see the cooperation of the Churches within Europe?

Look, there is no doubt that the Churches and religions play a very important role. They could play an even more significant role if they paid more attention to the essence, to the content of Christian teaching in this case, which I consider to be wonderful, a beautiful teaching, revolutionary for this time, but one that finds very little application. Christ said “peace be upon you,” He said to love our enemies—these teachings have been applied very little.

• You said that the Church loses its essence?

What I expect from the Church is to focus on the essence and not on the forms. Because I have seen people go to church and at the same time radiate malice and hatred. I will be a good Christian if I try to make Christianity a way and a practice of life.

Then, I expect the Church to see the problems in their global context. It is not possible that there is tolerance today with the fact that millions of children are dying of hunger in the Third World. How is it possible for us to live in such abundance while others have absolutely nothing? How do we tolerate this? We have literally torn apart Christian teaching and reduced it to formal issues that have no real value.

• Personally, would you take an initiative in the direction you are describing?

I try, through my work in the European Parliament, to fight for the protection of human rights, for example, for the rights of migrants and refugees. And these are people who have nothing, they have no fate under the sun. That’s how it is. As long as this gap exists, the one between Europe and the countries surrounding us, we should expect that the waves of refugees and migrants, the so-called illegal immigrants, will not stop, and there are illegal immigrants because there is a reason for migration.

• Do you follow the Church’s work on these issues?

I value it very much. Because I went and saw this women’s shelter for abused women in Patissia, and I was impressed. A lot of good work is being done there. I’ve seen similar places abroad, and I think this one is comparable, if not better. We talked about applying Christianity in practice, in our solidarity, in the help we can offer to our fellow human beings.

• The decision of the European Parliament to abolish the ban at Mount Athos shook public opinion. Do you believe that a tradition of almost a thousand years can be erased with a simple resolution?

I believe that what is happening is unfair. The exclusion of women from Mount Athos is an insult to women. Humanity is one, with two genders; you cannot make a distinction and say that I give privileges to one gender and exclude the other.

• Do you consider the ban to be a privilege for men?

As for Mount Athos, there was of course a decision made by the monks, which has absolutely nothing to do with Christian teaching and the doctrine of our religion, absolutely nothing at all. At the time this decision was made regarding women, everything was off-limits—education, science, the arts were all prohibited. Women had no rights whatsoever. The only role recognized for women was to bear children and serve their families. 2,000 years ago, Christ was surrounded by women and delivered the famous Christian anti-racist message: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female.” What does this mean? That there should be no discrimination based on gender. And this must change, and it will change. Because I do not believe that the monasteries are the monks’ private property. It is not possible for them to tell us that we cannot enter the churches of Mount Athos.

• The ban at Mount Athos is not about discrimination, it is about the concept of absolute silence…

If they want absolute silence, then they should also forbid the monks from going down to Thessaloniki and taking walks. Because wherever you go in Thessaloniki, you meet monks from Mount Athos. So, their life isn’t that ascetic, and thank God, they have modern technology, they have computers, they have all the good things. I am not against progress. But if they accept the progress of technology, shouldn’t they also accept progress in terms of ideas and social progress? Tomorrow we might have a female prime minister or even a female president. Does that mean the female president cannot go to Mount Athos, in an area of 400 square kilometers? Are we, then, considered unclean? And if you want, I can also mention the case of a journalist friend of mine, who gave birth to twins, a boy and a girl, and went to have them blessed. The priest took the boy and brought him into the sanctuary, while the girl was left outside. Is the little girl considered unclean? Is it possible, in today’s age, for the Orthodox Church to behave this way toward women, and for women to support this and say it’s right? No, it’s not right.

• With the same logic that you are raising the issue of the ban, will you also raise the issue of the ordination of women tomorrow?

Of course, I have raised it and will continue to raise it. What are you, the privileged ones, to be God’s representatives on earth and women what? Why can’t women be priests and bishops, why?

• Christ did not appoint women as Apostles…

Christ lived in a place and time where there was a specific environment, a particular atmosphere, and a certain culture. It was under Roman occupation, and some things were already established. The position of women at that time was not what it is today. Unfortunately or fortunately, women have only emerged from centuries of marginalization in the last century.

• Do you believe that Christ’s teaching would be different if He were teaching today, and that He would give women different roles?

In the Church, there have been holy women throughout every era. So how could there be discrimination? Why is it that only men can be priests? Why such privileges for men? When we talk about equality, we talk about equal rights. Of course, we are different, and our biological functions are different, but that doesn’t mean that one gender should have a superior position over the other or have privileges that the other doesn’t enjoy. There has been male dominance throughout the entire historical trajectory of humanity. Patriarchy means the rule of men. At some point, in a strange way, men held all the power and authority. This has changed in recent years.

If religions do not adapt to the social and economic realities, we will see major changes in the religious sphere. Ten years ago, there was a huge uproar in Great Britain with the Anglican Church. Women were admitted to the priesthood, and today we have female bishops. What did the Church lose by this? I have a colleague, Ulla Sävtek, who is a priest in the Protestant Church of Denmark. So why would our Church lose anything if women were ordained as priests?

• How did you see the reactions of the Church to the positions you support?

Look, Archbishop Christodoulos is a very good speaker and has a very open mind. But even he is limited. He cannot change the priests’ robes. Does that mean that priests who do not wear robes abroad are less good Christians?

• I see that you are constantly criticizing tradition.

We say yes to traditions that respect human rights and women’s rights and we say no to traditions that do not respect people’s rights. And in this regard, personally yes, I have no respect for those traditions that devalue women and do not recognize that they have equal rights with men, which do not respect women’s human rights. And this does not only apply to us. I say the same about Islam, which wants women to wear the burqa or marry them from the age of ten, aren’t these traditions too? Will I say yes to the Sharia tradition down in Nigeria that sentences women to death by stoning, just to preserve the family? He says to protect the family, so said the priest from Sudan, who also speaks good Greek and often appears on television shows to tell us that we are protecting the family with these cruel and inhumane sentences. Excuse me, I don’t want such a family to be protected by such horrible laws. How can I have respect for Sharia?

• War, then, against traditions?

I respect traditions and we have beautiful traditions. However, the fact that the monks decided 1000 years ago to exclude women, I cannot respect. No, I do not respect this tradition because I consider it illogical. It is a tradition that does not befit the stature of the Orthodox Church and it also creates negative impressions in the international arena. It does not exist anywhere else in the world. And why don’t other monasteries do it? What are the privileged monks of Mount Athos? We know they have privileges, that it is a tax haven there, are they something special, something unique? I haven’t seen any respect from their side either. I have read horrible texts in which they attack Patriarch Bartholomew.

• Recently, you visited the Phanar. Did you discuss this issue with the Patriarch?

Of course, we discussed it, because I also gave him a written memorandum. He told us that, in theory, we are right, but this will not change because of tradition. Personally, I am satisfied that he admitted that, at least theoretically, we are right, because we are six female Members of the European Parliament who raised this issue.

• Is it true that the Prime Minister intervened?

No. However, all governments and political parties want to be on good terms with the people, but I believe that progress happens when some dare to raise issues that no one else dares to raise. After all, I believe, and I have said, that in a democracy, there are no taboo subjects. We can discuss everything. So why is Mount Athos a taboo, and why is the priesthood a taboo, which will also change and you will see it. It may not change during our lifetime, but it will change.